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Author Topic: Let's talk about the numbers you love  (Read 12583 times)

Weninho

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Re: Let's talk about the numbers you love
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2012, 01:34:49 PM »

Wait wait. I am not a Lotito fan, but I think you jump to conclusions too fast.

Too fast? I've been jumping this conclusion since 2006 or so.

So we made a 5 mil euro lost in the 3 months of the season. Well, only the salaries of unused players (Matu, Carizzo, Diakite, Sculli, Foggia, Stanke, Zauri, etc) account for most of that in my opinion. Plus the fact that we do have some expensive players on our lists (Zarate, Ederson, Floc) compared to last season. So it is fair to say that the large squad and the big number of expensive players accounts for the lost.

Exactly. So what's your point? We've always had a large squad and we've always been paying salery's to players we don't need. I've been critisized for focusing to much on our large squad problem but this is exactly what I feared, and it's not like we're going to get rid of the problem in the nearest future.

You make a big fuzz about the 900k transfered to Lotito's companies. Well, remember also that we did pay some huge for us transfer fees (Hernanes - 11.5, Zarate - 20, Matu - 6, etc). If you look at the numbers, Lotito invested constantly 5-6 mil extra for the past 3-4 years. You can ofcourse argue that the investments were not wise, but he did put the money. So I don't find it unfair that he also helps his companies when in need. He is a businessman and Lazio is one of his assets. He can balance the money in everyway he can. We can argue that he does not invest enough or that he pays more to one part of the business than another but the truth is that the numbers don't really sustain that: Lazio is by far his biggest expense.

1. Which investments are you talking about? All our transfers and Lotito's so called "investments" are financed by sells and other incomes, Lotito hasn't invested anything expect from buying the stocks. The reason we didn't buy any player this summer is because Tare failed to sell like he for example sold Lichsteiner, Kolarov and De Silvestri. 

2. I would also say it's fair to help his own companies sometimes but what bothers me is that he'll never admit that he does. We're talking about a president that has repeated in endless of interviews that "other people use Lazio" while he "works for 24 hours" without getting "one single penny out of it". Well the numbers say otherwise. And how exactly is Lazio an expense for Lotito when he doesn't invest anything in the club?

To conclude, I would not say that Lotito is a bad president or that he is doing something surprising. You would be surprised how much money Morratti gets from Inter and distributes to other companies or how much income from Milan went to Berlusconi's political campaigns...

To conclude, I would say that's one of the worst comparisons ever. You can say much about Moratti in many ways but he has invested millions and millions and millions in Inter, money from his own pockets. He is not even close to being in the club for own winning.

You don't have to trust me and my numbers but if you really claim that Lotito is investing in Lazio and if you really do believe that we will have a brighter future, you need to study some numbers and you'll be surprised how wrong you are and how depressing our future looks. Lotito has reached his maximum with Lazio, that's why he's in Salernitana to start all over again.
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Weninho

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Re: Let's talk about the numbers you love
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 01:37:54 PM »

It's also the proof of something I've been saying for a very long time (back to the good old debates with Conn et al.). There was always going to come a point in Lotito's ownership where Lazio's interests were usurped by Lotito's interests. This is now happening, and it is now that the fans need to make a stand. I said this three to four years ago.

Even if you're right you should not be allowed to pull the I-told-you-so-card on me in a topic like this Cathal, it's someting me and my fellow anti-Lotitiani should have earned the exclusive right to do  :supsmile:
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Weninho

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Re: Let's talk about the numbers you love
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 01:50:13 PM »

Can someone explain me in more details which political party stays behind Lotito. Because that statement emerge on occasion : He was put there by politics... Didn't Italy changed their government, usually when there are some authorities shifts, the old pawns(Lotito in these case) are thrown away... Who is Lotito's circle of influence, those kind of things should be clear to the Italian supporters  or at least Italian speaking fans...

I'm obviously not Italian but it's not about a political party but more a regional concern. Rome and Lazio could not afford to loose Lazio so they needed to find someone like Lotito.
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Giolazio

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Re: Let's talk about the numbers you love
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 04:06:47 PM »

I'm not going to defend Lotito for the reasons Weni has already pointed out. However, Lotito (or any other board member)takes no pay from Lazio where for example, Marotta takes a 1.65 million Euro a year wage from Juve and Aldo Mazzia and Pavel Nedved earn 390,000 and 200,000 Euros respectively.

That 900k isn't that much if the President withdrew the monies as a dividend, which he is completely free to do.

For every other point that was made, I am 100% behind those.
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Weninho

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Re: Let's talk about the numbers you love
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 05:49:19 PM »

I'm not going to defend Lotito for the reasons Weni has already pointed out. However, Lotito (or any other board member)takes no pay from Lazio where for example, Marotta takes a 1.65 million Euro a year wage from Juve and Aldo Mazzia and Pavel Nedved earn 390,000 and 200,000 Euros respectively.

That 900k isn't that much if the President withdrew the monies as a dividend, which he is completely free to do.

For every other point that was made, I am 100% behind those.

Well 900k x 4 is 3,6 million euro. Fair enough that he is free to do it but it's just tiresome that he keeps repeating how he earns "nothing" from his work. And it's no surprise that people like Marotta and Nedved are payed for their work because they are hired, Lotito is not. The only person that he has hired is Tare and that's because he can't afford to have anyone intefearing with his business. But point taken with the 900k.
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Giolazio

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Re: Let's talk about the numbers you love
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2012, 07:08:23 PM »

I'm not going to defend Lotito for the reasons Weni has already pointed out. However, Lotito (or any other board member)takes no pay from Lazio where for example, Marotta takes a 1.65 million Euro a year wage from Juve and Aldo Mazzia and Pavel Nedved earn 390,000 and 200,000 Euros respectively.

That 900k isn't that much if the President withdrew the monies as a dividend, which he is completely free to do.

For every other point that was made, I am 100% behind those.

Well 900k x 4 is 3,6 million euro. Fair enough that he is free to do it but it's just tiresome that he keeps repeating how he earns "nothing" from his work. And it's no surprise that people like Marotta and Nedved are payed for their work because they are hired, Lotito is not. The only person that he has hired is Tare and that's because he can't afford to have anyone intefearing with his business. But point taken with the 900k.

Like I said, that was the only point I could find fault.
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Meyo

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Re: Let's talk about the numbers you love
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2012, 08:12:51 AM »

I have to only second Gio, being an owner of a company and take no pay :)

Many times owners inject money from their own business or pocket as a loan to the company, many times they withdraw that money back, or even receive dividends for it and that is fine.

Moreover, it is not big deal that we have a negative balance of ONLY 5 million euros in a quarter, you know the year is long and that number could change, moreover, compare Lazio to other Italian teams in the first thread and see the numbers spent and the amount of negative balance...
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drazvan

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Re: Let's talk about the numbers you love
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2012, 10:16:11 AM »

Wait wait. I am not a Lotito fan, but I think you jump to conclusions too fast.

Too fast? I've been jumping this conclusion since 2006 or so.

So we made a 5 mil euro lost in the 3 months of the season. Well, only the salaries of unused players (Matu, Carizzo, Diakite, Sculli, Foggia, Stanke, Zauri, etc) account for most of that in my opinion. Plus the fact that we do have some expensive players on our lists (Zarate, Ederson, Floc) compared to last season. So it is fair to say that the large squad and the big number of expensive players accounts for the lost.

Exactly. So what's your point? We've always had a large squad and we've always been paying salery's to players we don't need. I've been critisized for focusing to much on our large squad problem but this is exactly what I feared, and it's not like we're going to get rid of the problem in the nearest future.

You make a big fuzz about the 900k transfered to Lotito's companies. Well, remember also that we did pay some huge for us transfer fees (Hernanes - 11.5, Zarate - 20, Matu - 6, etc). If you look at the numbers, Lotito invested constantly 5-6 mil extra for the past 3-4 years. You can ofcourse argue that the investments were not wise, but he did put the money. So I don't find it unfair that he also helps his companies when in need. He is a businessman and Lazio is one of his assets. He can balance the money in everyway he can. We can argue that he does not invest enough or that he pays more to one part of the business than another but the truth is that the numbers don't really sustain that: Lazio is by far his biggest expense.

1. Which investments are you talking about? All our transfers and Lotito's so called "investments" are financed by sells and other incomes, Lotito hasn't invested anything expect from buying the stocks. The reason we didn't buy any player this summer is because Tare failed to sell like he for example sold Lichsteiner, Kolarov and De Silvestri. 

2. I would also say it's fair to help his own companies sometimes but what bothers me is that he'll never admit that he does. We're talking about a president that has repeated in endless of interviews that "other people use Lazio" while he "works for 24 hours" without getting "one single penny out of it". Well the numbers say otherwise. And how exactly is Lazio an expense for Lotito when he doesn't invest anything in the club?

To conclude, I would not say that Lotito is a bad president or that he is doing something surprising. You would be surprised how much money Morratti gets from Inter and distributes to other companies or how much income from Milan went to Berlusconi's political campaigns...

To conclude, I would say that's one of the worst comparisons ever. You can say much about Moratti in many ways but he has invested millions and millions and millions in Inter, money from his own pockets. He is not even close to being in the club for own winning.

You don't have to trust me and my numbers but if you really claim that Lotito is investing in Lazio and if you really do believe that we will have a brighter future, you need to study some numbers and you'll be surprised how wrong you are and how depressing our future looks. Lotito has reached his maximum with Lazio, that's why he's in Salernitana to start all over again.

1. The reason we did not buy any player is that we failed to sell dead-wood like Carizzo, Foggia, Sculli, etc...which means 5-6 mil euro lost in salaries this season. This is mainly due to Tare's poor skills and a complete wrong mercato strategy.

2. It is not fair to say that Lotito did not invest. Looking simplistic, you can say that he sold Kolarov and Lichty for profit and bought players only from those money. But it is NOT TRUE.
the money from sponsors, tickets and TV rights barely pay our salaries (this is a fact, not an assumption) and other expenses (stadium rent, etc). At the moment we still have 3-4 mil extra spending here. Then if you look at the past seasons:

2007 -6.775
2008 -12.9
2009 -18 (mostly zarate)
2010 -4.325
2011 +2.05
2012 -1.5 mil euro
--------------------
-41 mil euro

Where did this 41 mil euro come from? Now you complain that Lotito got 900k back and say that he is an a**hole cause he did not invest. Well, the numbers say something else.

To be honest the problem is more Tare than Lotito. We need a good director, one that can sell the dead wood and bring up new players. Tare is not up to this job and to be honest I'm more and more afraid he will make us fall big time.
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Weninho

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Re: Let's talk about the numbers you love
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2012, 09:13:55 PM »

1. The reason we did not buy any player is that we failed to sell dead-wood like Carizzo, Foggia, Sculli, etc...which means 5-6 mil euro lost in salaries this season. This is mainly due to Tare's poor skills and a complete wrong mercato strategy.

2. It is not fair to say that Lotito did not invest. Looking simplistic, you can say that he sold Kolarov and Lichty for profit and bought players only from those money. But it is NOT TRUE.
the money from sponsors, tickets and TV rights barely pay our salaries (this is a fact, not an assumption) and other expenses (stadium rent, etc). At the moment we still have 3-4 mil extra spending here. Then if you look at the past seasons:

2007 -6.775
2008 -12.9
2009 -18 (mostly zarate)
2010 -4.325
2011 +2.05
2012 -1.5 mil euro
--------------------
-41 mil euro

Where did this 41 mil euro come from? Now you complain that Lotito got 900k back and say that he is an a**hole cause he did not invest. Well, the numbers say something else.

To be honest the problem is more Tare than Lotito. We need a good director, one that can sell the dead wood and bring up new players. Tare is not up to this job and to be honest I'm more and more afraid he will make us fall big time.

1. And who's responsability is Tare?

2. I don't understand what you base your assumption on and I especially don't follow your numbers. Is it calculations sells+buys or do they include other things? Have you included merchandize, marketing deals and money from Champions League etc? The money from sponsors, tickets and tv-rights are the most important income for many clubs in Italy these days and especially for Lotito that doesn't invest in the sport. He already failed with sponsors and tickets, now it's clear he also failed with his tv-war.

Lazio's total salery amount has doubled. The money from tv-rights are pretty much the same while money from sponsors and tickets are constantly smaller. That's why he can't do mercato anymore. That's why he said he would buy "four champions" when expecting to sell players like Floccari, Zaraté and Sculli but could not since the presidents didn't keep their promises (surprise, surprise...) and he finally got cought in his own mess with stupid contracts and to many useless players that he built for the last seven years or so. You're right that the tv- and sponsormoney barely pay our saleries and our rent. Or our yearly dept to the Tax Agency for that matter. But it DID. And it also gave us a small opportunity to do mercato. But not anymore. The future doesn't look any better than this.

As I said, you have to be more specific what you mean with those 41 millions. But do you really think they came from Lotito's pocket? Then you need to ask yourself why Lotito never bought one single player without some kind of option, contract circumstance or clearence to pay for the transfer in different rates. If he invested the money himself - why didn't he just put up the cash and more importantly, how come Lazio has ended almost every year with green numbers?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 09:26:26 PM by Weninho »
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Weninho

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Re: Let's talk about the numbers you love
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2012, 09:29:20 PM »

I have to only second Gio, being an owner of a company and take no pay :)

Many times owners inject money from their own business or pocket as a loan to the company, many times they withdraw that money back, or even receive dividends for it and that is fine.

Moreover, it is not big deal that we have a negative balance of ONLY 5 million euros in a quarter, you know the year is long and that number could change, moreover, compare Lazio to other Italian teams in the first thread and see the numbers spent and the amount of negative balance...

Ok, fair enough. I can give you and Lotito that pay. But what exactly do you see that can turn the numbers around this year? I see absolutely nothing expect a CL-place.
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