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Cathal

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F1
« on: July 28, 2010, 06:12:37 PM »

Discuss F1 here...
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Cathal

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Re: F1
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2010, 08:08:39 PM »

Quote from: Caxi
Any views on the season so far or this weekend's events?

Basically, aside from a few bad races, in my opinion, Vettel has been the man to beat all season long and only horrible luck and poor reliability has stopped him running away with this championship. It will hot up now with Ferrari hitting back and the Red Bulls looking to have the edge on McLaren

I actually don't know how Hamilton is leading; it raises questions about the points system.

Schumacher's comeback has been an epic fail, questions must now be asked of his dynasty, he has been made to look foolish. Although, that's to be expected when people underrate top drivers such as Rosberg.

As for the Ferrari team orders, it's not sad that it was activated but incredibly sad that, a year to the day of a serious brain injury, their guy in Felipe Massa is denied a momentous and wonderful victory. It's an absolute travesty for the sport; surely there was so much more to gain for all parties by letting Felipe win.

Small incidents like these are as damaging for F1 as the various spy scandals.


Quote from: martinese
A fully agree with you about Massa's problem. He showed during the free practice that he can win the race and when it started everyone saw that this is his chance to get back in business but his stupid boss ordered him to let through that idiot Alonso. If he's faster and stronger than him why couldn't he go past him ? I'm really pissed of by this race and I seriously think to stop watching F1 and continue only to watch MotoGP. All those new rules just ruined this sport and made it quite dull.


Quote from: Taib
Quote from: Caxi
Any views on the season so far or this weekend's events?

Basically, aside from a few bad races, in my opinion, Vettel has been the man to beat all season long and only horrible luck and poor reliability has stopped him running away with this championship. It will hot up now with Ferrari hitting back and the Red Bulls looking to have the edge on McLaren

I actually don't know how Hamilton is leading; it raises questions about the points system.

Schumacher's comeback has been an epic fail, questions must now be asked of his dynasty, he has been made to look foolish. Although, that's to be expected when people underrate top drivers such as Rosberg.

As for the Ferrari team orders, it's not sad that it was activated but incredibly sad that, a year to the day of a serious brain injury, their guy in Felipe Massa is denied a momentous and wonderful victory. It's an absolute travesty for the sport; surely there was so much more to gain for all parties by letting Felipe win.

Small incidents like these are as damaging for F1 as the various spy scandals.


Let us think how long Ferrari were thinking about a year on after his serious injury that Felipe had chance to win...I think for about cumulatively about one second throughout the whole race. Sentiment has no place in Formula One. It is about results. Once the race starts it is all about maximising race potential. If it was me, I would have switched the Massa and Alonso during the pit stops because all race weekend long Alonso was clearly faster. There was much more to gain by having Alonso win:

I) Massa was slower then Alonso for most of the race. Massa was backing Alonso into Vettel. Alonso had the chance to overtake Massa but he did not want to risk too much since there could have been contact and screw both Ferraris over. Ferrari gave Felipe the chance to win the race when Alonso was saving fuel. Felipe opened a gap to 3 second to Alonso. Then Alonso got it back down to less then a second clearly showing he was faster but could not get close enough because of the turbulent air coming off Massa's car. Then Vettel was catching both Ferraris because Massa was backing Alonso up. The decision was taking to let Alonso through and the rest is history.

II) Alonso is the only Ferrari driver of winning the driver championship. Massa is near enough three victiories behind Hamilton. Ferrari must give preference to Alonso. It is not Alonso's fault that Massa is not only well off Hamilton but Alonso's. All season long barring Bahrain and Turkey, Alonso have been comfortably faster then Massa sometimes even up 8 tenths of a second. That is a massive gap considering they both drive the same car.

If people think that Ferrari was being unfair to Massa then they are throughly naive. Both drivers were told at the start of the season they would be treated equally until the point were one can not realistically win the championship whereby preference would be given to the other one. That is logical. We saw in Australia that Alonso went all the way to the back of the field, fought his was back up to Massa and Ferrari never let Alonso through. They were told to race even though Alonso was vastly quicker. In the race aftwerward second place driver Kubica admitted that he was glad that Alonso was not behind him. That cost Alonso but as the season has progressed it has been clear that Massa is a lot behind Alonso. Massive gaps. Even in Germany, Alonso qualified half a second clear of Massa. Massa is not in a position where he can realistically challenge for the title anymore where as Alonso is. Preference must be given to Alonso. That is not Alonso's fault. It is Massa'a for not doing a good enough job thus far.

Hamilton is leading because he has won two races, been on the podium more then any other driver and only failed to score points once. It raises nothing to the points system. Hamilton has been the most consistent driver.

Alonso has been the unluckiest not Vettel. In Australia he went to back off the field at the start when Button touched him. In Malaysia his gearbox was not working properly and incredibly he was still faster then Massa. Just goes to show how good Alonso is compared to Massa. Unfortunately, becasue of the gearbox being faulty it put too much strain on the engine and it blew up. In Monaco he ran over some grease in practice and crashed. He was loking a good bet for pole and probably victory. In Canada Alonso got messed up with traffic TWICE. If that never happened he would have won. In Valencia the safety car ruined his race when he was third. In Silverstone he got a ridiculas drive through penalty.

If Alonso has clean races he always ends up on the podium. He is the best driver out there. Now that the Ferrari is looking as comptetive relative to the Red Bull as it has ever been throughout the season, I expect Alonso to be winning races. Expect Alonso to be in the top three in Hungary.


Quote from: Taib
Quote from: martinese
A fully agree with you about Massa's problem. He showed during the free practice that he can win the race and when it started everyone saw that this is his chance to get back in business but his stupid boss ordered him to let through that idiot Alonso. If he's faster and stronger than him why couldn't he go past him ? I'm really pissed of by this race and I seriously think to stop watching F1 and continue only to watch MotoGP. All those new rules just ruined this sport and made it quite dull.


What a load of bullshit. Free practice one does not count since it was really wet and the track was changing all the time. In free practice two Alonso was the quickest out of them all while Massa spent his time spinning around like an amatuer. In free practice three Alonso was the quicker again then Massa. In qualifying Alonso topped the time sheets only until the end when Vettel beat by 2 thousands of a second. Massa was half a second behind Alonso.

Alonso could not by Massa in the race because of the turbulent air coming off the back of Massa's car. It causes the car to lose front end downforce and grains the tyres. Also he did not want to take any risks in case they touch because it is really really stupid if you crash into your team mate ala Red Bull in Turkey.


Quote from: Caxi
What happened in Turkey with Red Bull is what happens when team orders is not applied. However, it also demonstrates the flipside of the coin; if Alonso is good enough, he can pass Massa as Vettel did Webber before the Aussie inexplicably turned left (not sure why people continuously blame Vettel for that incident). Basically, I can understand team orders but it does hurt the sport. Vettel and Webber gained a lot of respect for racing wheel-to-wheel.

F1 had its glory days when teammates did that so, in terms of the story, it would have been mega to watch Massa hold off Alonso, knowing what was at stake on a personal level.


Quote from: martinese
Quote from: Taib

What a load of bullshit. Free practice one does not count since it was really wet and the track was changing all the time. In free practice two Alonso was the quickest out of them all while Massa spent his time spinning around like an amatuer. In free practice three Alonso was the quicker again then Massa. In qualifying Alonso topped the time sheets only until the end when Vettel beat by 2 thousands of a second. Massa was half a second behind Alonso.

Alonso could not by Massa in the race because of the turbulent air coming off the back of Massa's car. It causes the car to lose front end downforce and grains the tyres. Also he did not want to take any risks in case they touch because it is really really stupid if you crash into your team mate ala Red Bull in Turkey.


Where did you see me say that Massa is better than Alonso ? I just said that Massa deserved to take a win after all the problems he had through the past season. And I can also say that it's bullshit that Alonso didn't want to take a risk and try to overcome Massa because both the Ferrari's could have crashed. He's one of the most aggressive drivers I know and if he wanted the win so much he should have tried to overcome Massa. Those team orders suck and will ruin F1 as a sport. If FIA don't do something about this F1 will soon become as interesting as all the other races of this type (Formula BMW, Renault Series, GP3 and so on).


Quote from: Taib
Quote from: martinese
Quote from: Taib

What a load of bullshit. Free practice one does not count since it was really wet and the track was changing all the time. In free practice two Alonso was the quickest out of them all while Massa spent his time spinning around like an amatuer. In free practice three Alonso was the quicker again then Massa. In qualifying Alonso topped the time sheets only until the end when Vettel beat by 2 thousands of a second. Massa was half a second behind Alonso.

Alonso could not by Massa in the race because of the turbulent air coming off the back of Massa's car. It causes the car to lose front end downforce and grains the tyres. Also he did not want to take any risks in case they touch because it is really really stupid if you crash into your team mate ala Red Bull in Turkey.


Where did you see me say that Massa is better than Alonso ? I just said that Massa deserved to take a win after all the problems he had through the past season. And I can also say that it's bullshit that Alonso didn't want to take a risk and try to overcome Massa because both the Ferrari's could have crashed. He's one of the most aggressive drivers I know and if he wanted the win so much he should have tried to overcome Massa. Those team orders suck and will ruin F1 as a sport. If FIA don't do something about this F1 will soon become as interesting as all the other races of this type (Formula BMW, Renault Series, GP3 and so on).


OMG. Seriously OMG.

I never wrote you said Massa is better then Alonso. You wrote:

Quote from: martinese
A fully agree with you about Massa's problem. He showed during the free practice that he can win the race and when it started everyone saw that this is his chance to get back in business but his stupid boss ordered him to let through that idiot Alonso.


You said that Massa showed during free practice that he can win the race even though clearly that was not not the case which like I described is bullshit to the point where one of the commentators was asking Stefano Domenicali if there is a problem with Massa's car because he spent most of the time well behind Alonso and spinning all the time. One of the most annoying things on a messageboard is when some poster types something and then later backtracks claiming something else.

Erm, that is why Alonso said to the team a little after he tried to pass Massa "Guys, this is ridiculous" ie that there was a lot of risk involved. And in the press conference Alonso also mentioned that when he passed Massa that he was glad there would be not dangerous or risky menouvres. Why the hell would you want to risk taking out your team mate which is the dumbest thing to do in a race when they are in a one-two situation? Get real.

Team orders are a part of Formala One. Always have been, are now and always will be. Deal with it. Every season there is clear team orders. 


Quote from: Taib
Quote from: Caxi
What happened in Turkey with Red Bull is what happens when team orders is not applied. However, it also demonstrates the flipside of the coin; if Alonso is good enough, he can pass Massa as Vettel did Webber before the Aussie inexplicably turned left (not sure why people continuously blame Vettel for that incident). Basically, I can understand team orders but it does hurt the sport. Vettel and Webber gained a lot of respect for racing wheel-to-wheel.

F1 had its glory days when teammates did that so, in terms of the story, it would have been mega to watch Massa hold off Alonso, knowing what was at stake on a personal level.


Wrong.

In Turkey Mark Webber was told to go into fuel saving mode while Sebastian Vettel was told to attack. That is like subtle team orders. Red Bull obvously did not have the testicular fortitude to tell Mark Webber to move over and so they tried to facilitate the move another way. The lap delta times prove this as well as the in board race engineer conversation. Vettel could not pass Webber under normal race circumstances. There in no chance in hell under normal race conditions that Vettel can get pass Webber because they have the same car and similar pace unless Webber makes a mistake. Like I already said the back of the cars give turbulent air which ruins front end downforce. The closer you get the worse it becomes. It is hard enough when you are only a little faster, against a team mate when you have the same car it is near impossible to pass.

It was clear as daylight it was Vettel's fault. Mark Webber gave him the space and Vettel took it and then Vettel turned right even though the apex was left. Vettel crashed into Mark Webber. That is why everyone thinks it was Vettel's fault. Caxi, you must have your blinkers on because that yet another instance which something is clear to everyone yet you say the opposite.

It would have been "mega" to watch Massa and Alonso and that could have been possible only if Massa was in the championship race. Which he is not. That is Massa's fault for not being good enough for half the season. Now his role is too help Alonso. It could have been reversed if Massa was leading and Alonso out of contention.


Quote from: Caxi
[flash(425,350)]http://www.youtube.com/v/3JOw5Z0PQv0[/flash]

At 0:15, Webber clearly turns left.

This is further demonstrated by Vettel's on board. His left front and rear hog the white line and although moving in a straight line, he miraculously is punted off the road by someone, who apparently didn't turn left.

I didn't say that wheel-to-wheel racing occurred because of no team orders but rather that accidents between teammates is to be expected when someone up the ranks doesn't call the shots. Nobody can prove that Red Bull used subtle team orders but their lack of "Vettel is faster than you" lead to an avoidable collision. Well, that and whatever Webber was doing...

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Kris

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Re: F1
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2010, 10:48:25 AM »

1    Mark Webber   Australian    RBR-Renault   161  :winner:
2    Lewis Hamilton   British    McLaren-Mercedes   157
3    Sebastian Vettel   German    RBR-Renault   151
4    Jenson Button   British    McLaren-Mercedes   147
5    Fernando Alonso   Spanish    Ferrari   141
6    Felipe Massa   Brazilian    Ferrari   97
7    Nico Rosberg   German    Mercedes GP   94
8    Robert Kubica   Polish    Renault   89
9    Michael Schumacher   German    Mercedes GP   38
10    Adrian Sutil   German    Force India-Mercedes   35

Will be a very interesting race at Spa. Mclarens will dominate & RB's will be fighting to keep up with their pace. This championship is going right down to the wire, especially with the last few rounds favouring the RB's.

CMON WEBBER! AUSSIE! AUSSIE! AUSSIE! OI! OI! OI!
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Amir

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Re: F1
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2010, 11:04:44 AM »

This is proving one heck of a nice season, sporting wise!
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Taib

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Re: F1
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2010, 06:15:08 PM »

1    Mark Webber   Australian    RBR-Renault   161  :winner:
2    Lewis Hamilton   British    McLaren-Mercedes   157
3    Sebastian Vettel   German    RBR-Renault   151
4    Jenson Button   British    McLaren-Mercedes   147
5    Fernando Alonso   Spanish    Ferrari   141
6    Felipe Massa   Brazilian    Ferrari   97
7    Nico Rosberg   German    Mercedes GP   94
8    Robert Kubica   Polish    Renault   89
9    Michael Schumacher   German    Mercedes GP   38
10    Adrian Sutil   German    Force India-Mercedes   35

Will be a very interesting race at Spa. Mclarens will dominate & RB's will be fighting to keep up with their pace. This championship is going right down to the wire, especially with the last few rounds favouring the RB's.

CMON WEBBER! AUSSIE! AUSSIE! AUSSIE! OI! OI! OI!

Many people thought that Germany was a certain McLaren win because it is a low downforce circuit with long straights a lot like what happenned in Canada. The end result was the McLaren was very far behind the Red Bulls who were expected to struggle and Ferraris.

I would say the McLaren at the moment does not have much chance of winning any of the remaining races as the cars are at the moment. In Germany, the McLaren was way behind Red Bull and Ferrari while the gap was embarressingly big in Hungary which is a high downforce circuit. In both extremes the McLaren was never in a position to win. The main problem for McLaren is they can not get their rear diffuser to work. They are wasting a lot of time trying to get it right while Red Bull and Ferrari are already sorted in that area. Ferrari will be introducing a improvement on the diffuser in Spa as well. Ferrari and Red Bulls flexing front wings is another area where McLaren are seriously behind.

In Spa, I think Ferrari will have the best chance to win. Ferrari have been traditonally very good at Spa and the course favours the current car very well since the the Ferrari have has great braking and traction and a very good top speed. Same with Monza and probably Abu Dhabi. I would say Singapore and Japan are probably going to be Red Bull tracks and Korea is an unknown.
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Cathal

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Re: F1
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2010, 06:33:14 PM »

McLaren's best bet is that their reliability holds firm and that Hamilton pulls off a few special drives while Jenson picks up points where the others fall off the road. Aside from Canada, I don't think they've really took control anywhere. It's the only place Red Bull were kept off pole.

McLaren were the closest challengers in the first half of the season, now it's Ferrari. If reliability, luck and skill evened out, it would be a straight fight between the Red Bulls (I'd maybe argue Vettel would be slightly ahead) and the others would be squabbling for third in the driver's standings but that is not the case and that keeps it interesting for the remainder of the season.
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Kris

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Re: F1
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 12:59:24 AM »

Ferrari and Red Bulls flexing front wings is another area where McLaren are seriously behind.

Whats the go with these flexing front wings. Technically, if you go by the letter of the law, these need to be "rigid". I remember Martin Brundle on ITV saying that a complaint was made by McLaren to the FIA and that it was getting "looked in to"?

When you see the slow motion shots of these wings, they are pretty much flexing down and grazing the track, wheras McLarens are as hard as an oak tree.

Has there been any development (news wise) on this?
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Taib

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Re: F1
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2010, 05:36:02 PM »

Ferrari and Red Bulls flexing front wings is another area where McLaren are seriously behind.

Whats the go with these flexing front wings. Technically, if you go by the letter of the law, these need to be "rigid". I remember Martin Brundle on ITV saying that a complaint was made by McLaren to the FIA and that it was getting "looked in to"?

When you see the slow motion shots of these wings, they are pretty much flexing down and grazing the track, wheras McLarens are as hard as an oak tree.

Has there been any development (news wise) on this?

The front wings are supposed to be rigid within cetain critirea I can not remember off the top of my head. The Ferrari and the Red Bull front wings meet those critirea so they are legal. The front wings get loading tests whereby they are only allowed to flex a certain amount when a certain force applied. What McLaren are saying is that the test is insufficient since the force generated at the speed that the wings are flexing is far greater. The FIA say that are going to do a more stringent test at the next race in Spa. Personally I think it is sour grapes from McLaren. They are just trying to get them outlawed so that Red Bull and Ferrari lose out and that themselves will not have to waste any development time in making fleixible wings. The Red Bull front wings have been flexing since China so they could have said something then. McLaren did a similar thing when they were accusing Red Bull of ride height control as well.
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Kris

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Re: F1
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 12:07:19 AM »

WEBBER ON POLL IN SPA!  :sciarpa05: :sciarpa05: :sciarpa05:

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Amir

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Re: F1
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 10:45:35 AM »

It was a close call between him and Lewis.

Alonso 10th after a superb Friday. WTF ?
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