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Author Topic: CIES Observatory Rankings  (Read 7156 times)

drazvan

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Re: CIES Observatory Rankings
« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2017, 11:34:18 AM »

I dont think Marusic is over-rated. To be honest, there are not so many strong fast right wingers out there at this age.
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moody

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Re: CIES Observatory Rankings
« Reply #91 on: December 05, 2017, 03:52:25 PM »

Luis and Sergej both fetched 3 goals in Serie A and Luis has way more assists. They have different roles in the team but I don't really see Sergej worth 3 times more than Luis, at least on contribution wise I consider them on similar terms. Luis was only given chances this season and he proved he is consistent and no fluke, although true, that clubs won't be knocking at our door this mercato for him so yes in some way you can say he is 15m or whatever right at this point, but a player of his ability and age could fetch 30m by the end of the season unless he drops considerably.

For Marusic, he was bought for 6.5m and other than the 2 goals and some good teamwork, his defense and overall skills would not make him a star in the future so hard to justify 15m (I could be wrong since Hoedt was sold for more). Anyway I don't really see his market value rising 10m for these few months nor the future, and he isn't even that young.
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Hadi Van Der Vaart

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Re: CIES Observatory Rankings
« Reply #92 on: December 05, 2017, 04:03:30 PM »

You cant compare Luis n Sergej based on their goals n assists. Luis Alberto was nobody before this season, had Keita stay, Anderson stay fit or even Nani adapts well, I doubt he will get playing mins like today. I also cant say he is consistent this season.
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moody

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Re: CIES Observatory Rankings
« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2017, 04:21:37 PM »

Yes he was nobody before this season but welcome to Dec 2017 when he is currently somebody in the Spanish team now. He might be overshadowed by others if he is forced to play regista and can't get the chances he deserves, but bringing up Nani up is really a poor argument for he didn't accomplish anything this season except for a goal against a bottom team. Not to mention apart from goals and asissts which came from various games instead of one or two, Luis Alberto is also the top player in Lazio on whoscored. If he's not consistent then no one else is either.
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Hadi Van Der Vaart

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Re: CIES Observatory Rankings
« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2017, 04:36:39 PM »

......., but bringing up Nani up is really a poor argument for he didn't accomplish anything this season except for a goal against a bottom team.

I said if
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Cathal

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Re: CIES Observatory Rankings
« Reply #95 on: December 05, 2017, 05:37:00 PM »

Yes he was nobody before this season but welcome to Dec 2017 when he is currently somebody in the Spanish team now.

No, he's not. He's literally had '15 minutes of fame' as of today. He's the Spanish equivalent of Bryan Cristante, only older.

It's the same sort of logic that was used for Biglia all those years ago. If he's playing for Argentina, if our team was built around him, if he's our captain, he must be good, he must be worth 25-30 million. But that logic doesn't look sound anymore.

Luis and Sergej both fetched 3 goals in Serie A and Luis has way more assists.

Luis Alberto should have more assists, being the playmaker of this team who is also taking set-pieces. You noted yourself that they have different roles, so what's the grounds for the comparison? For example, how is it any different to arguing that de Vrij is worth more than Leiva because the Dutchman has made more clearances?

SMS holds much more value because he's been established at this level for a longer period of time and he's younger, but most importantly of all, he seems to be able to play three different positions at a relatively high level whereas Luis Alberto hasn't shown he can play anywhere other than behind the striker. Not great as a winger, not succeeding as a deep-lying playmaker.

I like Luis Alberto and I can see him being worth much more than 15 million, but he's rather limited in what he brings to a team and his CV is far from spectacular.
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moody

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Re: CIES Observatory Rankings
« Reply #96 on: December 05, 2017, 06:13:44 PM »

Yes he was nobody before this season but welcome to Dec 2017 when he is currently somebody in the Spanish team now.

No, he's not. He's literally had '15 minutes of fame' as of today. He's the Spanish equivalent of Bryan Cristante, only older.

It's the same sort of logic that was used for Biglia all those years ago. If he's playing for Argentina, if our team was built around him, if he's our captain, he must be good, he must be worth 25-30 million. But that logic doesn't look sound anymore.

Luis and Sergej both fetched 3 goals in Serie A and Luis has way more assists.

Luis Alberto should have more assists, being the playmaker of this team who is also taking set-pieces. You noted yourself that they have different roles, so what's the grounds for the comparison? For example, how is it any different to arguing that de Vrij is worth more than Leiva because the Dutchman has made more clearances?

SMS holds much more value because he's been established at this level for a longer period of time and he's younger, but most importantly of all, he seems to be able to play three different positions at a relatively high level whereas Luis Alberto hasn't shown he can play anywhere other than behind the striker. Not great as a winger, not succeeding as a deep-lying playmaker.

I like Luis Alberto and I can see him being worth much more than 15 million, but he's rather limited in what he brings to a team and his CV is far from spectacular.

Sergej only had 2 matches for his national team and why does that matter? I also don't think versatility is  greatly affecting valuation, as if Immobile is worthing less when he can't play anywhere other than striker. And to be fair FA has not really played attacking midfield for a long long time, previously there was Hernanes and then he went to the wings when we don't have a true attacking midfield. FA is also unproven at that position and people are already saying he is better based on few pre-season matches.

For the assists, LA has 6 and SMS has 1 as at whoscored, so different roles or whatever, that proves LA is doing a good job at his position, and for SMS who does a good job for his position, 3 times difference is too much.

Good that you can also see his worth, and to be honest, CV are for those who cannot judge talent and have to rely on inconclusive description to evaluate. That has always been the source of disastrous hires in the various companies I've worked in.
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Cathal

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Re: CIES Observatory Rankings
« Reply #97 on: December 05, 2017, 06:43:39 PM »

Sergej only had 2 matches for his national team and why does that matter? I also don't think versatility is  greatly affecting valuation, as if Immobile is worthing less when he can't play anywhere other than striker. And to be fair FA has not really played attacking midfield for a long long time, previously there was Hernanes and then he went to the wings when we don't have a true attacking midfield. FA is also unproven at that position and people are already saying he is better based on few pre-season matches.

For the assists, LA has 6 and SMS has 1 as at whoscored, so different roles or whatever, that proves LA is doing a good job at his position, and for SMS who does a good job for his position, 3 times difference is too much.

Good that you can also see his worth, and to be honest, CV are for those who cannot judge talent and have to rely on inconclusive description to evaluate. That has always been the source of disastrous hires in the various companies I've worked in.

Are you talking only about CIES' valuations or your own opinion on how much you think players should be worth? I am aware of how CIES come to their valuations, but I've got my own ideas on how players should be valued.

I think a player being in a national team and playing games - which they take into consideration - isn't something that should be used to evaluate a player. Firstly, the opposition can vary in quality which can make it difficult to evaluate a performance. Secondly - as was the case with Biglia - you can break into a national team because there's simply a lack of players with a certain passport in a particular position. And finally, it can all get a bit political. Now, CIES put a lot of emphasis on this in their valuations because they've seem to have found some correlation between price and performance in the national team, but the correlation could simply be that national team players tend to be good and therefore cost a lot. It might be something that is rarely taking into consideration at management level, consciously or otherwise.

I think versatility should contribute and probably does contribute to a player's value but it's not something that is ever really brought up. For me, it's an indicator of talent. You're suggesting Immobile isn't worth less because he can only play as a striker, but do you think Immobile would be at Lazio if he could also play on the wing, like Messi, CR7, Neymar, Mbappé, Griezmann, Suarez, Dybala, Kane, Aguero, Sanchez, Morata and all these all other very expensive players? There's a reason out-and-out strikers such as Higuain, Icardi and Immobile end up plying their trade in Italy.

CIES' valuations hinge largely on what a player has done in their career to date (the CV) and Luis Alberto's career so far has been rather modest while for a 22 year-old, SMS has an impressive track record. And I agree with you that too much emphasis is placed on this within the football world. But Luis Alberto's talent and recent performances, in my opinion, is not enough to value him much higher than the 15 million CIES does.
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Evesto

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Re: CIES Observatory Rankings
« Reply #98 on: December 05, 2017, 07:30:46 PM »

About Marusic, i think the CIES value is very logical.  He plays a high amount of time, puts in loads of miles  and is dependable.  The value will only get higher. 

Also logical on Luis Alberto.  Good at passing around and making the trough pass but limited in other areas.  Also just been playing on a higher level since a couple of months.  That arguement could be used on Marusic as well but in his case it also matters wich role he fills.  Wingers who do the entire flank and can still run after 90min and more, and are reasonably dependable on a good level will certainly always hold value.  Wich is also the reason why Lukaku already doubled in value and it's not by being flawless.

Ciro's high number is moslty due to his goalscoring record currently but in lesser days that will drop very quick, Sergej is lower now but he will only become more valuable normally.
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