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Author Topic: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16  (Read 12914 times)

Cathal

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Re: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16
« Reply #210 on: November 10, 2015, 09:36:56 PM »

What if I then say that if Basta would have marked Bonaventura better, then he couldn't have made the cross to Cerci? So should we blame Basta as well? What if we say that the goal wouldn't have happened if there isn't a throw-in? It's true, so maybe the player who put the ball over the line is the one in fault. :twinkle: We can keep this going and going.

It's a dead ball situation - I consider that to be the start of the play. Rizmo has made me realise that Basta runs away from Bonaventura (I think because he tries to anticipate the throw-in) and so yes, I think you can blame him for giving Jack the space. But for me, positioning is the thing I really care about - that's basic. Errors I can accept, bad positioning, no. And it's easily solved. But it's harder to notice - I had to go looking for it.




Of course it's salvageable, but it's dangerous.

Gentiletti is marking Dzeko, but he needs to move a bit closer to Radu to cut off the obvious run for Dzeko. Radu has a choice to make between helping Gentiletti with Dzeko and leaving Gervinho unmarked in a wide area, or marking Gervinho and leaving Dzeko to Gentiletti. I agree with Radu's decision - correct call.

Dzeko needs to be stopped so Gentiletti brings him down outside the box. As Gentiletti complained to Tagliavento immediately, I'm certain he planned to take the free-kick and the yellow. I do, however, think he could've pressed Dzeko instead of standing off him - that's his error.
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Cnon

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Re: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16
« Reply #211 on: November 10, 2015, 09:54:18 PM »

Of course it's salvageable, but it's dangerous.

Gentiletti is marking Dzeko, but he needs to move a bit closer to Radu to cut off the obvious run for Dzeko. Radu has a choice to make between helping Gentiletti with Dzeko and leaving Gervinho unmarked in a wide area, or marking Gervinho and leaving Dzeko to Gentiletti. I agree with Radu's decision - correct call.

Dzeko needs to be stopped so Gentiletti brings him down outside the box. As Gentiletti complained to Tagliavento immediately, I'm certain he planned to take the free-kick and the yellow. I do, however, think he could've pressed Dzeko instead of standing off him - that's his error.
I agree it's dangerous because Gervinho is unmarked and because Lulic and Gentiletti should be positioned a bit better. Right? But what Dzeko alone is doing there isn't dangerous. Right? Dzeko is standing still back towards the goal. Gentiletti is playing this poorly. His positioning is pretty awful but he is trying to do the correct thing. About Radu, you are definitely correct. Why no comment about Biglia? :twinkle:

So all in all, this situation is definitely salvageable should Gentiletti play it better and should Lulic play it better. In the end Gervinho's run is trivial because Dzeko doesn't pass to him and he moves to an offside position. Lulic's bad positioning doesn't matter because Dzeko doesn't pass the ball to Nainggolan. So in the end it was only Gentiletti's poor positioning and bad marking on Dzeko what caused the goal.

Didn't you just say that poor positioning is something you don't accept. Why Gentiletti gets away but Biglia can't? Why Biglia doesn't get any appreciation of his positioning in the picture? Why Lulic's positioning isn't a problem?
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It might not be perfect but I can stretch to maybe 75% close to perfect. That's all you get Cathal, 25%  :fingerup:

Rizmo

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Re: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16
« Reply #212 on: November 10, 2015, 09:57:36 PM »

Candreva is positioned to mark Antonelli, who is taking the throw-in. If Onazi leaves Bertolacci to Candreva, then Milinkovic-Savic needs to mark Antonelli. In my opinion that would be messy - Candreva is the right winger, makes sense for him to mark the left-back.

Someone has to mark and press Bertolacci, as he is a prime candidate to receive the throw-in. I'd argue that Basta could be marking Bertolacci and Onazi could be marking Jack, but in truth, they are both right-sided players man marking left-sided players, so that's a matter of personal preference in my opinion. Given Onazi's behaviour later in the play, that might be something worth changing and it would be interesting to find a similar situation in future and see how it shapes up.

You could ask though why Basta moves away from Jack, and I would. Basta's positioning is fine, but that decision to move away from Jack is something I'd want explained.

To be honest, I hadn't noticed it, because everything was fine (except Biglia  :rolley:). But definitely Basta does something odd there.

And to be absolutely clear, I actually don't disagree with you, Cnon, Weninho etc. on much. It's purely that I think you need to have all defenders goal side off a throw-in to say we are organised defensively. Basta, I see now, makes a poor decision. Biglia is positioning.

I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean that Candreva should mark Bertolacci. Onazi's position makes Bonaventura able to run into the empty space where Onazi should cover. Bertolacci is walking away from the throw in and even if he turns quickly then Candreva is there and Onazi will be there in a second to help out. It's nothing dangerous with Bertolacci receving the ball facing Antonelli. But I am afraid to say too much about Onazi's position at the throw in as I really don't want to end up 10 pages deep debating millimeters about where he should stand  :razz:

But for me, positioning is the thing I really care about - that's basic. Errors I can accept, bad positioning, no. And it's easily solved. But it's harder to notice - I had to go looking for it.

Errors that lead to goals you can accept but Biglia being a meter or so off, is worse? Maybe you mean in general, because even in the most screwed up world I can imagine, Biglia's positioning in the Milan game is not "bad". It might not be perfect but I can stretch to maybe 75% close to perfect. That's all you get Cathal, 25%  :fingerup:
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... but I'm sure I'm correct and you are wrong.

"Maki man, Maki man, e'erbody do the Maki man, cos Maki can, Maki can, e'erbody know that Maki can cos he da man, he da man, e'erbody know that he da man, so be his fan, be his fan, e'erbody be the Maki fan" - Caxi dropping some truth on ya'll.

Cnon

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Re: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16
« Reply #213 on: November 10, 2015, 10:01:28 PM »

It might not be perfect but I can stretch to maybe 75% close to perfect. That's all you get Cathal, 25%  :fingerup:
LOL! This is going to be my signature then as you use mine! :razz:
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It might not be perfect but I can stretch to maybe 75% close to perfect. That's all you get Cathal, 25%  :fingerup:

Rizmo

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Re: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16
« Reply #214 on: November 10, 2015, 10:13:44 PM »

 :beer:
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... but I'm sure I'm correct and you are wrong.

"Maki man, Maki man, e'erbody do the Maki man, cos Maki can, Maki can, e'erbody know that Maki can cos he da man, he da man, e'erbody know that he da man, so be his fan, be his fan, e'erbody be the Maki fan" - Caxi dropping some truth on ya'll.

Mark

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Re: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16
« Reply #215 on: November 10, 2015, 10:19:25 PM »

What if I then say that if Basta would have marked Bonaventura better, then he couldn't have made the cross to Cerci? So should we blame Basta as well? What if we say that the goal wouldn't have happened if there isn't a throw-in? It's true, so maybe the player who put the ball over the line is the one in fault. :twinkle: We can keep this going and going.

It's a dead ball situation - I consider that to be the start of the play. Rizmo has made me realise that Basta runs away from Bonaventura (I think because he tries to anticipate the throw-in) and so yes, I think you can blame him for giving Jack the space. But for me, positioning is the thing I really care about - that's basic. Errors I can accept, bad positioning, no. And it's easily solved. But it's harder to notice - I had to go looking for it.




Of course it's salvageable, but it's dangerous.

Gentiletti is marking Dzeko, but he needs to move a bit closer to Radu to cut off the obvious run for Dzeko. Radu has a choice to make between helping Gentiletti with Dzeko and leaving Gervinho unmarked in a wide area, or marking Gervinho and leaving Dzeko to Gentiletti. I agree with Radu's decision - correct call.

Dzeko needs to be stopped so Gentiletti brings him down outside the box. As Gentiletti complained to Tagliavento immediately, I'm certain he planned to take the free-kick and the yellow. I do, however, think he could've pressed Dzeko instead of standing off him - that's his error.


In my opinion Mauricio should provide cover for Gentiletti. It beats me why we insists on play one against one in defence. How I remember the days when Nesta functioned in a sweeper like role.
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christ_JM

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Re: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16
« Reply #216 on: November 11, 2015, 04:09:58 AM »

Man I'd wish I had the patience to join in on this discussion that you fine gentlemen are having. I really appreciate the effort you guys put into your posts and it makes it easier to understand.

This. I agree.
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Cathal

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Re: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16
« Reply #217 on: November 11, 2015, 07:30:43 AM »

I agree it's dangerous because Gervinho is unmarked and because Lulic and Gentiletti should be positioned a bit better. Right? But what Dzeko alone is doing there isn't dangerous. Right? Dzeko is standing still back towards the goal. Gentiletti is playing this poorly. His positioning is pretty awful but he is trying to do the correct thing. About Radu, you are definitely correct. Why no comment about Biglia? :twinkle:

It's dangerous because 1-2 seconds earlier, it's Salah, Dzeko and Gervinho v Gentiletti and Radu. It's dangerous because someone called Lucas Biglia made an idiotic decision to chase Salah when there was no pressure, didn't do it properly, and Salah took advantage. At this moment in time, Biglia is in a good position, but 1 second earlier, he's not, and 1 second later, he's not. As you admitted... it's already dangerous.

That's what I'm angry about, instead of Gentiletti being slightly out of position on Dzeko. He's marginally out of position because he switches from man marking Dzeko to zonal marking (to cover whatever Salah does). It's a decision he has to make in milliseconds. His big error is that he doesn't switch back to man marking Dzeko a couple of seconds later. That leads to the foul.

So all in all, this situation is definitely salvageable should Gentiletti play it better and should Lulic play it better. In the end Gervinho's run is trivial because Dzeko doesn't pass to him and he moves to an offside position.

Lulic's bad positioning doesn't matter because Dzeko doesn't pass the ball to Nainggolan. So in the end it was only Gentiletti's poor positioning and bad marking on Dzeko what caused the goal.

It's salvageable if Gentiletti plays it better, yes. But Gervinho's run isn't trivial. That's where we're disagreeing on these situations. Gervinho's run takes Radu away from the action and Gentiletti sees this happening. Gervinho is now behind Gentiletti and Gentiletti doesn't know where Gervinho is. Is it possible that Gentiletti didn't press Dzeko and let Dzeko run at him because he was trying to cover a potential pass to put Gervinho through on goal? Highly likely. The Gervinho run that you call trivial is probably the exact thing that brings out Gentiletti's error.

Didn't you just say that poor positioning is something you don't accept. Why Gentiletti gets away but Biglia can't? Why Biglia doesn't get any appreciation of his positioning in the picture? Why Lulic's positioning isn't a problem?

This is very simple Cnon.

Gentiletti, Lulic and Radu are all positioned correctly at one point or another in this play - they end up having to leave their positions to react to Salah and Dzeko. This is because Biglia, who was marking Salah, lost him.

If your interest is in finding someone to blame for errors they make when they have milliseconds to react in real time, that's fine. My interest is in a player who has 3 or 4 seconds to get in the correct position on a throw-in but doesn't and who runs after the football for no regard of what's going on around him when the team with possession are putting us under absolutely no pressure.
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Cnon

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Re: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16
« Reply #218 on: November 11, 2015, 10:18:19 AM »

You're actually right, I didn't thought of the Radu factor. Might be because it was getting late here. Ok, Gervinho's run isn't trivial because his run took Radu away from the situation. But I would still say the situation is ok as there is Radu vs Gervinho and Gentiletti vs Dzeko who isn't even doing anything dangerous. We both agree that Gentiletti played the situation badly. You only argue he played it badly because of Biglia's earlier mistake but I'd say he played it badly because he isn't as good defender as we have hoped for. To be honest Gentiletti has had big problems with his positioning and in decision making. And if you're a defender that can be very costly to the team. Gentiletti knows that doing a tackle there is risky, in the end it caused the goal. He wasn't forced to do anything, it was a bad decision.

What is your thought about Parolo? I have said many times that he is more to be blamed more than Biglia yet you haven't said a word about Parolo's work ethic or lack of it. Here are three simple pictures which show exactly what I mean:

As you can see our formation here is exactly what we want: 4 defenders in pretty good shape and line and 3 midfielders above them. What you need to see is that Biglia and Parolo have switched their places.


Few seconds later Parolo presses Vanquier and is on his way to back but stops as Biglia is pressing Salah. Why stop here as he could easily go back where he was?


1-2 seconds later Biglia lost Salah who has moved 4 meters forward yet Parolo is still standing where he was earlier. This is where the situation started according to you but isn't that empty space in middle because of Parolo's absence more than Biglia's as it was Parolo who was in middle in the first place? How can you discredit Biglia's work ethic here when he is trying to chase Salah and save the situation while Parolo was jogging casually back to his position?


Btw one thing you can see from the 2nd and the 3rd picture is that how well Anderson and Candreva are tracking back even when they are not needed to do that as much in 4-3-3 formation than in 4-2-3-1. I mean in 4-3-3 formation you have three midfielders which can cover the midfield from left to right far better than in 4-2-3-1 formation where you definitely need help from the wingers. Yet here Anderson is exactly where he should have been in the Milan's goal when Cerci got the ball. Of course part of the reason is that Pioli has instructed both to defend more because he was afraid to concede in the derby. But still, here Anderson is perfectly positioned defensively and not thinking about the attack at all while against Milan it was the other way around.
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It might not be perfect but I can stretch to maybe 75% close to perfect. That's all you get Cathal, 25%  :fingerup:

Cathal

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Re: Tactics Discussion: 2015/16
« Reply #219 on: November 11, 2015, 10:52:36 AM »

But I would still say the situation is ok as there is Radu vs Gervinho and Gentiletti vs Dzeko who isn't even doing anything dangerous. We both agree that Gentiletti played the situation badly.

Gentiletti's initial positioning and decisions are good.

As the attack progresses, Gentiletti defends like a man who has little confidence or trust in those around him. Instead of thinking 'Radu and Mauricio are behind me, we're good here', he seems to think '****, Gervinho is behind me, I've got to backtrack... ****, Dzeko's running at me now, I need to foul him.'

He's no Thiago Silva, but I'm not sure lack of ability explains his actions. More that he knows 1927 have pace and he doesn't, and he's not willing to leave it to others.



This is the key screenshot for my argument. Radu is marking Gervinho, Gentiletti is marking Dzeko, Basta is marking Salah, Biglia is marking Iago Falque. Mauricio is the spare man in defence primed to intercept, Parolo is the spare man in midfield who needs to come across and press the ball. Biglia then decides to stop marking Iago Falque, so Mauricio has to take Falque on.

Parolo goes and press Vainqueur which he has to do as Digne has gone forward and Candreva has had to come into defence. Parolo presses Vainqueur and Biglia goes to press Salah, so Parolo stops and marks Vainqueur. Here's where you argue Parolo should run into the zone and cover Biglia, but everybody is man marking so if Parolo does that, he's going off script.

Biglia is too far away to press Salah, and yet he tries to intercept Salah's pass to Falque. That puts him on the wrong side of Salah and Salah has a direct route to goal.

What Biglia needs to do there is stand off Salah and block the route to goal. As captain, he could signal to Parolo - 'you press Salah, I'll watch Vainqueur' if he wants to, or he could signal for Parolo to retreat and then go press Salah. But ultimately, 1927 are going nowhere if Biglia holds position.

But because Biglia decides to press Salah when he cannot possibly intercept, an attack that is in no way dangerous is now dangerous.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 11:01:00 AM by Cathal »
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