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Author Topic: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017  (Read 2079 times)

blue-white

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #100 on: November 29, 2017, 11:11:56 AM »

VAR would be so easy. Like in NFL.

Ref make a call / or not - Var (3 referees in front of tv replays) take a look at this. And THEY tell the ref on the field what will be right now.

On Sunday i saw the main problem in - a ref alone on the field watches on a small screen and decides ALONE about the situation.
The ref was not able to be 100% sure about this penalty, and if it's NOT 100%, he should let the game continue.

Next point: if the VAR referees can't see 100% the situation, the live call of the referee should count - means on sunday - VAR would have watched - can't say for 100% if it's a penalty - ref on the field didn't whistle - so game would have went on. Basta. 

Cathal

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #101 on: November 29, 2017, 11:21:08 AM »

VAR would be so easy. Like in NFL.

You've already gone wrong here in my opinion  :razz:

The clock stops in the NFL and NFL rules are not that open to interpretation - two key reasons replays work in the NFL. If the rules of the game change, VAR can work in football, but if the rules don't change, then VAR is simply going to add an extra layer of controversy - not only does everyone think they are being screwed by the ref, but now they'll feel they are getting screwed by VAR as well.

VAR is creating the kind of situations we were told it would prevent. What more evidence is needed that it doesn't work? It only serves to create better TV, which to be quite honest, is all the powers that be care about.
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blue-white

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #102 on: November 29, 2017, 11:29:54 AM »

I still stay wit my opinion, that VAR in general is the right way. Simply because when i remember the derby, without VAR, we would not have got a penalty for us. It was a classy situation - ref doesn't see it - video shows it different - clear decision.

So VAR in 100% situations is the right way. but not useful for situations like vs. Fiorentina.

Cathal

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #103 on: November 29, 2017, 11:42:23 AM »

So VAR in 100% situations is the right way.

I agree with that, but I also think that's never going to happen. That's what is meant to be happening, and it's not. Giving referees VAR and asking them to use it sparingly is like letting a child open their Christmas present and asking them to have their breakfast before they play with their new toy.

They are talking about making football games 60 minutes long and having the clock stop when the ball goes out of play. I don't think many would accept that today, but expose everyone to VAR for 4 or 5 seasons, and they'll be begging for it. And I think that's the bigger picture.

I've heard so many people say VAR needs to work like the tennis 'challenge' system with the manager being allowed to challenge certain calls. While it is widely seen as a positive for tennis, what is maybe less spoken about is the fact no one watches tennis anymore because a Nadal match in a Grand Slam could put people to sleep and now they want to introduce new things and change old rules to speed up tennis games - they want it to be more TV-friendly.

I'm not saying VAR can't work - I'm saying with VAR in place, the game has to change. Significantly so. Otherwise people will turn off. People are turning off the NFL too and partly because even with all the technology, fans feel their team is being screwed over. There's other reasons, but we'll not get into those!
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Sile

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #104 on: November 29, 2017, 12:15:53 PM »

Look at it this way, if the play was waved on would any of the Fiorentina players and staff make a claim for a penalty while having a straight face? No, because they would be laughed at.

This decision hasn't benefited Fiorentina as much as it hurt us and benefited merda, napoli and rube.
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blue_sky

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #105 on: November 29, 2017, 12:19:20 PM »

I think VAR eliminate the interesting football in general which a controversy. With VAR, no body will talk to Maradona God hand if it was applied that time.

But for sure, Football is still football, we have another controversy even with VAR like we discussed.

So for the one giving idea implemented VAR in Seri A, I say it that's it doesn't make any different and it's interesting actually
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blue-white

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #106 on: November 29, 2017, 12:47:10 PM »

The reason why i'm for VAr is, when i take that derby - if there would not have been VAR, ALL Lazio fans would speak about a not given penalty - and because of that non given penalty, Lazio was not able to change that game.
Because of VAR, we got that handball penalty, and we saw that Lazio was not able to turn that game.

Without VAR, we are going back into a game where too many important decisions would be wrong decisions.
I speak about clear offside goals, clear handball in penalty area, clear footballs behind the goal line and the ref doesn't give that goal.
Football is all about the money...

There was once Irland vs France ... you remember? ... sure, you do... :vcool: Now i brought back the bad memories ... hahahaha.... :fingerup: :razz:
With VAR, Ireland would have qualified.

Important decision should not be wrong decisions. So, if they go out with the rule, that VAR will only be used for goal/or not goal, or things like De Rossi did last weekend, or offside goals - i would already be happy.
If it's too tricky to judge 100% fouls, then keep that out of the VAR rules. But completely without VAR - i would not prefer this.

Cathal

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #107 on: November 29, 2017, 01:00:44 PM »

The reason why i'm for VAr is, when i take that derby - if there would not have been VAR, ALL Lazio fans would speak about a not given penalty - and because of that non given penalty, Lazio was not able to change that game.
Because of VAR, we got that handball penalty, and we saw that Lazio was not able to turn that game.

Without VAR, we are going back into a game where too many important decisions would be wrong decisions.
I speak about clear offside goals, clear handball in penalty area, clear footballs behind the goal line and the ref doesn't give that goal.
Football is all about the money...

There was once Irland vs France ... you remember? ... sure, you do... :vcool: Now i brought back the bad memories ... hahahaha.... :fingerup: :razz:
With VAR, Ireland would have qualified.

There is no guarantee VAR would've been used on the Henry handball, and even though VAR was used to good effect in the Derby in one situation, that was not the situation we ended up talking about and much of that discussion centred on VAR not being used.

I understand your point - if we use VAR to correct very obvious errors, then it clears up controversies. Simple logic. Unfortunately, there were many people who instead of arguing that VAR should be used less are actually arguing that it should be used more. I see more people arguing VAR should've been used on the Parolo incident than there are people arguing it shouldn't have been used on the Caicedo penalty call.

In an ideal world, we'd be in agreement. But this isn't the ideal world. Not everyone is as straight-forward or as clear in their own mind as you are. And referees certainly are not!
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stefano_40

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #108 on: November 29, 2017, 02:47:23 PM »

The reason why i'm for VAr is, when i take that derby - if there would not have been VAR, ALL Lazio fans would speak about a not given penalty - and because of that non given penalty, Lazio was not able to change that game.
Because of VAR, we got that handball penalty, and we saw that Lazio was not able to turn that game.

Without VAR, we are going back into a game where too many important decisions would be wrong decisions.
I speak about clear offside goals, clear handball in penalty area, clear footballs behind the goal line and the ref doesn't give that goal.
Football is all about the money...

There was once Irland vs France ... you remember? ... sure, you do... :vcool: Now i brought back the bad memories ... hahahaha.... :fingerup: :razz:
With VAR, Ireland would have qualified.

Important decision should not be wrong decisions. So, if they go out with the rule, that VAR will only be used for goal/or not goal, or things like De Rossi did last weekend, or offside goals - i would already be happy.
If it's too tricky to judge 100% fouls, then keep that out of the VAR rules. But completely without VAR - i would not prefer this.

In theory, just using it for "big decisions" sounds great. But it is allowing referees to be too pedantic. I don't really see the problem with having a challenge or two per game per team that they can use to challenge anything that happens with VAR. The catch being that once you use the two challenges, you get no more. This way, the team initiates VAR, not the ref, and only challenges calls that they feel are actually worthwhile. Could be better this way?

In general though, I'm a big fan of context, and that's where I feel that VAR has failed in football so far. When you can review an incident numerous times, the decision process has to be less black and white than simply just asking "Was there any amount of contact in the box? " and "did the attacker fall as a result of this?".  Trajectory of the ball, the involved player's body positions, involved player's approach to the incident and position of other players around the incident are just a few other things that help to bring the decision into context.

I think we've seen the two extremes of VAR in the past two Serie A games. One decision that was a clear as day penalty awarded after not initially being awarded, and one bullshit penalty being awarded after not initially being awarded. I was very much for VAR at the start, but now after a few months, I'm against it. It has to work 99% of the time to be worthwhile. At the moment, it is causing as much controversy as just leaving decisions up to the referee based on seeing the incident once, so what's the point?

« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 03:03:14 PM by stefano_40 »
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71 min: Finally a goal in this game! It's a scrappy one, but Lazio won't care. Candreva goes down the right of the box and fires a shot at Lobont. He saves the shot put can only push it to Lulic on the other side, who stabs the ball home to give Lazio the lead!!

edo_shehb

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #109 on: November 29, 2017, 03:00:50 PM »

The reason why i'm for VAr is, when i take that derby - if there would not have been VAR, ALL Lazio fans would speak about a not given penalty - and because of that non given penalty, Lazio was not able to change that game.
Because of VAR, we got that handball penalty, and we saw that Lazio was not able to turn that game.

Without VAR, we are going back into a game where too many important decisions would be wrong decisions.
I speak about clear offside goals, clear handball in penalty area, clear footballs behind the goal line and the ref doesn't give that goal.
Football is all about the money...

There was once Irland vs France ... you remember? ... sure, you do... :vcool: Now i brought back the bad memories ... hahahaha.... :fingerup: :razz:
With VAR, Ireland would have qualified.

Important decision should not be wrong decisions. So, if they go out with the rule, that VAR will only be used for goal/or not goal, or things like De Rossi did last weekend, or offside goals - i would already be happy.
If it's too tricky to judge 100% fouls, then keep that out of the VAR rules. But completely without VAR - i would not prefer this.

I'm a big fan of context, and that's where VAR has failed in football so far. When you can review an incident numerous times, the decision process has to be less black and white than simply just asking "Was there any amount of contact in the box? " and "did the attacker fall as a result of this?".  Trajectory of the ball, the involved player's body positions, involved player's approach to the incident and position of other players around the incident are just a few other things that help to bring the decision into context.

I think we've seen the two extremes of VAR in the past two Serie A games. One decision that was a clear as day penalty awarded after not initially being awarded, and one bullshit penalty being awarded after not initially being awarded. I was very much for VAR at the start, but now after a few months, I'm against it. It has to work 99% of the time to be worthwhile. At the moment, it is causing as much controversy as just leaving decisions up to the referee based on seeing the incident once, so what's the point?

I wholeheartedly agree that VAR should clarify more rather making more controversy

which bring me back to my earlier question, regarding Caicedo incident, was it blown up as much out there (in Italy at least) or it is just us?

I already google for more sources / news about this but found nothing and it make me bit worry ...... :whistle:
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