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Author Topic: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017  (Read 2072 times)

stefano_40

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #110 on: November 29, 2017, 03:07:40 PM »

The reason why i'm for VAr is, when i take that derby - if there would not have been VAR, ALL Lazio fans would speak about a not given penalty - and because of that non given penalty, Lazio was not able to change that game.
Because of VAR, we got that handball penalty, and we saw that Lazio was not able to turn that game.

Without VAR, we are going back into a game where too many important decisions would be wrong decisions.
I speak about clear offside goals, clear handball in penalty area, clear footballs behind the goal line and the ref doesn't give that goal.
Football is all about the money...

There was once Irland vs France ... you remember? ... sure, you do... :vcool: Now i brought back the bad memories ... hahahaha.... :fingerup: :razz:
With VAR, Ireland would have qualified.

Important decision should not be wrong decisions. So, if they go out with the rule, that VAR will only be used for goal/or not goal, or things like De Rossi did last weekend, or offside goals - i would already be happy.
If it's too tricky to judge 100% fouls, then keep that out of the VAR rules. But completely without VAR - i would not prefer this.

I'm a big fan of context, and that's where VAR has failed in football so far. When you can review an incident numerous times, the decision process has to be less black and white than simply just asking "Was there any amount of contact in the box? " and "did the attacker fall as a result of this?".  Trajectory of the ball, the involved player's body positions, involved player's approach to the incident and position of other players around the incident are just a few other things that help to bring the decision into context.

I think we've seen the two extremes of VAR in the past two Serie A games. One decision that was a clear as day penalty awarded after not initially being awarded, and one bullshit penalty being awarded after not initially being awarded. I was very much for VAR at the start, but now after a few months, I'm against it. It has to work 99% of the time to be worthwhile. At the moment, it is causing as much controversy as just leaving decisions up to the referee based on seeing the incident once, so what's the point?

I wholeheartedly agree that VAR should clarify more rather making more controversy

which bring me back to my earlier question, regarding Caicedo incident, was it blown up as much out there (in Italy at least) or it is just us?

I already google for more sources / news about this but found nothing and it make me bit worry ...... :whistle:

I don't think you're going to get much coverage on an incident like that unless you're playing in the world cup, or in the latter stages of the Champions League etc. I'm sure in a parallel universe, there are forums of other teams filled with similar posts.

For example, even the decisive incident between Switzerland and Northern Ireland in the recent WCQ got very little coverage, and even I only heard of it because I am from Ireland. Northern Irish friends were disgusted. Nobody else cared. But it was still an important, and incorrect, call.
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71 min: Finally a goal in this game! It's a scrappy one, but Lazio won't care. Candreva goes down the right of the box and fires a shot at Lobont. He saves the shot put can only push it to Lulic on the other side, who stabs the ball home to give Lazio the lead!!

Dakiller961

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #111 on: November 29, 2017, 03:20:51 PM »

I understand your point - if we use VAR to correct very obvious errors, then it clears up controversies. Simple logic. Unfortunately, there were many people who instead of arguing that VAR should be used less are actually arguing that it should be used more. I see more people arguing VAR should've been used on the Parolo incident than there are people arguing it shouldn't have been used on the Caicedo penalty call.

What I am arguing personally is either VAR be used on all controversial decisions or not.
I Cannot understand why a referee be so stubborn not to accept to go back to VAR on the parole incident when obviously the captain and parolo asked him to, what did he have to lose ? hence the feeling of match fixing and calciopoli goes back in mind
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Cathal

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #112 on: November 29, 2017, 03:37:41 PM »

What I am arguing personally is either VAR be used on all controversial decisions or not.
I Cannot understand why a referee be so stubborn not to accept to go back to VAR on the parole incident when obviously the captain and parolo asked him to, what did he have to lose ? hence the feeling of match fixing and calciopoli goes back in mind

Massa is not supposed to be going to VAR every time there's an incident in the box and it's not even clear that Massa saw the Parolo incident as taking place in the box since the challenge itself appeared to be outside the box (in which case, VAR isn't allowed to be used). Massa didn't call for VAR to be used on the Caicedo 'foul' either. It was Fabbri.

I think the real issue is that the Caicedo 'foul' went to VAR and the decision was changed - that is indeed odd and should be explained - but that whole aspect of the debate got lost. And generating conspiracy theories doesn't help either in my opinion because for me, there's clearly no conspiracy, but there should be question marks surrounding Massa and Fabbri's competence as Serie A referees.

I already google for more sources / news about this but found nothing and it make me bit worry ...... :whistle:

The wider public don't care about Lazio and Fiorentina. So the media only discuss it if it's in their interest to do so. For most outlets, there were bigger games with storylines that will capture the attention of the masses (De Rossi, for example).

Corriere dello Sport barely referenced the incident and basically said it was a penalty, as I'd expect a Roman newspaper where most of the readers are inevitably 1927 supporters to argue.

In Florence, this was a stonewall penalty. While Lazio as a club tweet out how VAR is supposed to be used, Fiorentina as a club are defiant - it was a penalty.
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Dakiller961

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #113 on: November 29, 2017, 03:42:17 PM »

I think we've seen the two extremes of VAR in the past two Serie A games. One decision that was a clear as day penalty awarded after not initially being awarded, and one bullshit penalty being awarded after not initially being awarded. I was very much for VAR at the start, but now after a few months, I'm against it. It has to work 99% of the time to be worthwhile. At the moment, it is causing as much controversy as just leaving decisions up to the referee based on seeing the incident once, so what's the point?

completely agree.

I think VAR should be 100% machined, maybe through AI technology because
Artificial intelligence would be neutral , it would take into consideration all factors, ball trajectory, both players trajectory and positioning, contact, speed, etc... and give a decision based on a algorithm which no one can refute. it would also take the 5th referee job and it would indicate directly to the ground referee the situation directly.
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edo_shehb

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #114 on: November 30, 2017, 03:05:22 AM »

What I am arguing personally is either VAR be used on all controversial decisions or not.
I Cannot understand why a referee be so stubborn not to accept to go back to VAR on the parole incident when obviously the captain and parolo asked him to, what did he have to lose ? hence the feeling of match fixing and calciopoli goes back in mind

Massa is not supposed to be going to VAR every time there's an incident in the box and it's not even clear that Massa saw the Parolo incident as taking place in the box since the challenge itself appeared to be outside the box (in which case, VAR isn't allowed to be used). Massa didn't call for VAR to be used on the Caicedo 'foul' either. It was Fabbri.

I think the real issue is that the Caicedo 'foul' went to VAR and the decision was changed - that is indeed odd and should be explained - but that whole aspect of the debate got lost. And generating conspiracy theories doesn't help either in my opinion because for me, there's clearly no conspiracy, but there should be question marks surrounding Massa and Fabbri's competence as Serie A referees.

I already google for more sources / news about this but found nothing and it make me bit worry ...... :whistle:

The wider public don't care about Lazio and Fiorentina. So the media only discuss it if it's in their interest to do so. For most outlets, there were bigger games with storylines that will capture the attention of the masses (De Rossi, for example).

Corriere dello Sport barely referenced the incident and basically said it was a penalty, as I'd expect a Roman newspaper where most of the readers are inevitably 1927 supporters to argue.

In Florence, this was a stonewall penalty. While Lazio as a club tweet out how VAR is supposed to be used, Fiorentina as a club are defiant - it was a penalty.

perhaps I got my question wrong, I'm not asking bout our games but the controversy (according to Lazio fans at least) surrounding VAR in the games

and apparently nobody else cares, so it wasnt that much of controversy, or at least not yet
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Cathal

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #115 on: November 30, 2017, 08:25:33 AM »

perhaps I got my question wrong, I'm not asking bout our games but the controversy (according to Lazio fans at least) surrounding VAR in the games

Sorry, I can't work out what you're asking  :razz: The first time, it sounded like you were referring specifically to the Caicedo incident, now you are saying you're not talking about our games, but 'the' games? What games?  :supsmile:
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drazvan

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #116 on: November 30, 2017, 11:38:05 AM »

Let's face it - we played 2 poor games in a row. The derby and Fiorentina. Three if we add the Vitesse game. We need to wake up. We have another tough game ahead of us as Sampdoria is playing better than us at the moment. We should stop talking about VAR. We need focus to get something out of this one.
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Giolazio

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #117 on: November 30, 2017, 03:21:33 PM »

Let's face it - we played 2 poor games in a row. The derby and Fiorentina. Three if we add the Vitesse game. We need to wake up. We have another tough game ahead of us as Sampdoria is playing better than us at the moment. We should stop talking about VAR. We need focus to get something out of this one.

Absolutley. Let the fans talk about VAR. I'd be very concerned if the players had it in their heads, Inzaghi has to tell them to simply play better.
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Hadi Van Der Vaart

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #118 on: November 30, 2017, 03:58:53 PM »

Let's face it - we played 2 poor games in a row. The derby and Fiorentina. Three if we add the Vitesse game. We need to wake up. We have another tough game ahead of us as Sampdoria is playing better than us at the moment. We should stop talking about VAR. We need focus to get something out of this one.

Absolutley. Let the fans talk about VAR. I'd be very concerned if the players had it in their heads, Inzaghi has to tell them to simply play better.

That thing was bothering the players actually, Strakosha, Bastos even Leiva complained about that non existent penalty on their social media. But you're right, they should focus on their game now.
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Players come and go, but my Lazio is still eternal.
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edo_shehb

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Re: Serie A : SS Lazio - AC Fiorentina 1-1 , 25/11/2017
« Reply #119 on: December 01, 2017, 07:07:26 AM »

perhaps I got my question wrong, I'm not asking bout our games but the controversy (according to Lazio fans at least) surrounding VAR in the games

Sorry, I can't work out what you're asking  :razz: The first time, it sounded like you were referring specifically to the Caicedo incident, now you are saying you're not talking about our games, but 'the' games? What games?  :supsmile:

at first I had this urgency to clarify myself more, but then the moment has passed so let just move along to the next games

the season still long anyway, we might as well have another VAR incident  :fingerup:
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