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Author Topic: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018  (Read 2674 times)

Cathal

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Re: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2018, 12:42:44 PM »

I totally agree with campiador when he says that the sidebacks should follow the CBs when you play an offside trap.
Sure, you can start to build the trap from the wingbacks too, but normally - this gets build up from the CBs.

Point I was trying to make is that if we plan to play offside in this 3-5-2 system, you can't have the centre-backs make the offside call and expect the wing-backs to follow the line if on many occasions, Lulic and Marusic are going to be 40-50m up the pitch busting their balls to try and get back and help out the centre-backs. It won't work.

That's why with our system, it wouldn't be weird for the wing-backs to set the line so that the centre-backs push up in line with the wing-backs. I'm not saying Lulic would shout over at Radu and say 'push up', but that in situations where the wing-backs are nearby, the centre-backs would be coached to push up and form a line where the wing-backs are.

If we actually played 5-3-2, then of course it would make sense for de Vrij to set the line. But we don't, and it's very impractical to use a 3-5-2 in this system where the wing-backs are clearly more advanced than the centre-backs and de Vrij has sweeper duties. To play offside successfully, the defensive line needs to be flat and clear... and it never is with this Lazio  :supsmile:

Sorry Cathal, but even in that video you shared, Chris Hughton is saying that the 2 CBs will create "the line"  as they are closest to each other and can communicate and obviously have the attacker(s) close to are able to time the trap.

I never said the centre-backs didn't create the line. campiador said everyone knows that full-backs or wing-backs match the line of the centre-backs, but that's not always the case. Sometimes the full-back and wing-backs just has to stay put and do nothing (basically what Hughton is saying) and sometimes, as I explained above, they can't even be a part of the trap.
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Stefano6

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Re: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2018, 12:45:59 PM »

Maybe something is lost on me then, but why does it matter? If Lulic is 20m further up the pitch than the CBs are then he obviously has no affect on any offside trap.

Unless this was the point, sorry I havnt followed all the pages!
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Cathal

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Re: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2018, 12:55:12 PM »

Maybe something is lost on me then, but why does it matter? If Lulic is 20m further up the pitch than the CBs are then he obviously has no affect on any offside trap.

Unless this was the point, sorry I havnt followed all the pages!

Was really just trying to explain that there's no one universal way to play the offside trap and therefore none of us can assume that Marusic, Wallace, de Vrij and Radu all played the offside perfectly and Lulic is the idiot that didn't get the memo.
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Cnon

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Re: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2018, 01:21:52 PM »

2) if Lulic pushes up more decisively, then Callejon would delay his run and Wallace would end up playing him onside and then you Lulic is the idiot for running away from Callejon.

If Lulic would be on the same line with others (=paying attention what other defenders are doing), then Callejon, like you said, would have had to wait which most likely would have been enough for others to react and stop his run or Callejon would have been in offside. Now Lulic was wrongly positioned and even then it was really close that it would have been offside but Lulic being two steps too deep played him onside. And I mean that's what Lulic should have done way before the pass, not when the pass was happening.
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It might not be perfect but I can stretch to maybe 75% close to perfect. That's all you get Cathal, 25%  :fingerup:

blue_sky

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Re: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2018, 01:36:58 PM »

The thing that most probably all said that we are playing offside trap and I don't agree with. It's not offside trap we played, but Lulic is to wide to close to Radu and he is too deep to compared to other. Until this situation, in static situation, Lulic is wrong position in wrong time.
Basically when we are in defense situations, wing back will be so closed each other to side where the ball is played so that we have 5 players in that situation and this will minimize space so that we can intercept the ball.
So no offside trap I agree with, but Lulic isn't positioning himself where he should be and make Callejon space to run to.
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Cnon

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Re: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2018, 01:43:03 PM »

Yeah some might have said it wrong, we don't play offside trap as team in general. But you don't need an active offside trap to make a player be offside if their timing is off. Now their timing was close to perfect because Lulic was positioned wrongly. Should he had been positioned correctly, Napoli's timing would have been off and it would have been an offside or our CBs would have had time to react and most likely stop Callejon like I said before. In the end it's Lulic fault simple as that.
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It might not be perfect but I can stretch to maybe 75% close to perfect. That's all you get Cathal, 25%  :fingerup:

blue_sky

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Re: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2018, 01:55:32 PM »

I agree with you Cnon at all because the contra argument of guys here who is not agree that Lulic is culprit always about so called "we didn't play offside trap" with 352.
That's superficial and theoretical. As situation in that game there was a timing and Lulic make it work, so called offside trap didn't work
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Cathal

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Re: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018
« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2018, 02:03:35 PM »

To all you are placing full blame on Lulic for the goal, what is Radu doing? Wallace is marking Insigne, de Vrij is marking Mertens and Radu is...?

Asking for a friend  :whistle:
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Evesto

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Re: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018
« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2018, 02:44:05 PM »

To all you are placing full blame on Lulic for the goal, what is Radu doing? Wallace is marking Insigne, de Vrij is marking Mertens and Radu is...?

Asking for a friend  :whistle:

This is the real question to me.  Going for an offside trap in a 3-5-2 really doesn't make any sence to me, and if it was the idea i doubt we would see it much further.

Napoli had 3 attackers and Lazio 3 cb's, would seem strange to me that Radu isn't looking at Callejon with at least half an eye since i would expect him to be assigned to him.  Marusic has to support Wallace & Lulic for Radu.  If Callejon passes freely i would also have trouble leaving Radu with absolutly no blame whatsoever. 

If Lulic put Callejon onside, it doens't mean Radu has the right to be not looking.

Anyhow i have no doubt the situation will have been thouroughly looked at meanwhile, so it's water under the bridge for me.  It won't bring the points back.
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Cathal

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Re: SSC Napoli - SS Lazio 4-1, 10/02/2018
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2018, 02:57:39 PM »

Napoli had 3 attackers and Lazio 3 cb's, would seem strange to me that Radu isn't looking at Callejon with at least half an eye since i would expect him to be assigned to him.  Marusic has to support Wallace & Lulic for Radu.  If Callejon passes freely i would also have trouble leaving Radu with absolutly no blame whatsoever. 

Exactly. With Callejon, Lulic and Radu are supposed to have each other's back and Stefan didn't have Senad's back.

Now, someone could say Radu did have Lulic's back - he played Callejon offside and Lulic screwed himself over - but when you are playing an offside trap, sort of important to give Lulic the heads up on it.

That's why for me, it's as simple as our defenders were not on the same page. Yeah, Lulic could've pushed up and played Callejon off but Radu could've looked at Callejon, dropped back to cover Lulic and intercepted Jorginho's pass.

Keen to see how those putting 100% of the blame on Lulic can possibly justify putting 0% of the blame on Radu, but can't really say anything more on the matter.
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